Readers Note:
The purposes of this post are: 1) to call your attention a string of more than 30 comments on the thread of Latest Suit & Reader Comments which string one commenter just characterized as “[w]onderful, thoughtful comments and debate;” and 2) to provide a more current thread for "the conversation" so others will be more likely to "find the conversation" because it's on the thread of a more current post.
I’m posting the following comment Red Mountain made just a few minutes ago not to agree or disagree with it, but to offer it as the latest example of the civility and seriousness of “the conversation” on the thread.
To Anon @ 12:33 and your question re Barry Saunders ever making a joke about the Duke 3 getting raped in prison. If he has, I haven't seen it. I have however seen jokes about Nifong getting raped in prison, which was not one of the prouder moments for that particular board.If you have not already read the posts Local Coverage of Latest Suit and Latest Suit & Reader Comments and their threads, I encourage you to do so.
Emotions tend to run high on both sides of this case, and jumping to conclusions and stereotyping people is common.
I tend to be skeptical of everything I read in the mainstream media just as I tend to be skeptical of this lawsuit, certainly at least until I see some of the defendants responses to it. I do believe the American justice system will sort this out and I am rooting hard for justice in this case.
From a historical perspective, I think this case is very important and I believe it is even more important that we get the true history here.
I’ll be delighted if “the conversation” continues on this new Post 2 thread but if people want to continue on the other threads, they’re free to do so.
One caution: Civil, fact-based and thoughtful "conversations" in which people listen to each other always upset trolls, who usually then come crashing in to disturb "the conversation" and drive off the thoughtful commenters.
I’ll be here often with my finger close to the “delete” button.
I'll also post later tonight a few more of my own thoughts concerning this latest suit filing.
That said, let “the conversation” continue.
John
12 comments:
John: I know this is the kind of discussion you were looking for when you created this blog. Thank you so much for providing subject material and the avenue for this kind of conversation. Comments have been "wonderful and thoughtful" and the debate civil. I commend each poster and Merry Christmas to all.
I also appreciate the forum and civility of the debate thus far John, thank you for the opportunity. I guess there are a few things that concern me about both of these civil lawsuits. The first thing is just the multitude of defendants and the possibility that some if not many of these people were not part of a 'consortium' to 'railroad' the Lacrosse players.
DUKE UNIVERSITY; DUKE UNIVERSITY POLICE
DEPARTMENT; AARON GRAVES; ROBERT DEAN;
LEILA HUMPHRIES; PHYLLIS COOPER; WILLIAM F.
GARBER, II; JAMES SCHWAB; JOSEPH FLEMING;
JEFFREY O. BEST; GARY N. SMITH; GREG
STOTSENBERG; ROBERT K. STEEL; RICHARD H.
BRODHEAD, Ph.D., PETER LANGE, Ph.D.; TALLMAN
TRASK, III, Ph.D.; JOHN BURNESS; LARRY MONETA,
Ed.D.; VICTOR J. DZAU, M.D.; ALLISON HALTON;
KEMEL DAWKINS; SUZANNE WASIOLEK; STEPHEN
BRYAN; MATTHEW DRUMMOND; DUKE
UNIVERSITY HEALTH SYSTEMS, INC.; PRIVATE
DIAGNOSTIC CLINIC, PLLC; JULIE MANLY, M.D.;
THERESA ARICO, R.N.; TARA LEVICY, R.N.; THE
CITY OF DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA; MICHAEL B.
NIFONG; PATRICK BAKER; STEVEN CHALMERS;
RONALD HODGE; LEE RUSS; STEPHEN MIHAICH;
BEVERLY COUNCIL; EDWARD SARVIS; JEFF LAMB;
MICHAEL RIPBERGER; LAIRD EVANS; JAMES T.
SOUKUP; KAMMIE MICHAEL; DAVID W. ADDISON;
MARK D. GOTTLIEB; BENJAMIN W. HIMAN;
LINWOOD WILSON; RICHARD D. CLAYTON; DNA
SECURITY, INC.; RICHARD CLARK; and BRIAN
MEEHAN, Ph.D.
The above from the most recent filing, there are some that I believe that are in the first filing that may also fall in this category. I know that much was made of the huge cloud hanging over the Lacrosse team wondering who would be 'picked' to be charged in this case, the distress and worry that they and their families had to face, not to mention the large legal bills they would accrue due to that. All the time knowing they had done nothing other than to attend a party. Some of these folks listed are facing the same kind of distress and worry today. And some may not have the ready resources to fight this and may have to rely on family and friends for help during this holiday season. It doesn't make sense to me that all of these people were actively involved in a frame or conspiracy. I expect someone would have spoken up as the case developed, just my opinion. I have sympathy for what they are facing today. My opinion of the first lawsuit was that it was a 'shoulda, woulda, coulda lawsuit (meaning some were being included in the list of defendants because they should have known, could have found out, would have put a stop to the case if they had done the job they were supposed to do. This latest filing to me, represents more of a direct accusation and implies malicious intent on the part of many of the defendants. I just have a harder time with buying into that.
The other thing that has been bugging me about our first discussion here is that quote attributed to Steel, the one about the players can sort it out on appeal. I believe this came via a conversation Jason T. had with Steel at some point. Steel was referred to as cold and heartless because of that quote. I would love to have been able to hear that conversation in context. It just doesn't sound to me to be the kind of quote that 'speaks' for Steel and what he represents and what I believe he stands for.
Redmountain said This latest filing to me, represents more of a direct accusation and implies malicious intent on the part of many of the defendants. I just have a harder time with buying into that.
Even if their actions weren't malicious, their actions were negligent and they need to be called to account for their failures.
To LIguy,
In other words, whatever they didn't do was bad enough.
I think it is obvious that some of these people are hurting and I feel their pain. That troubles me. My opinion of the second lawsuit is that it is overstated and exaggerated. I don't pretend to be a legal expert, I am just speaking from the compassion I feel for some that I believe are not responsible for what happened to the Lacrosse team nor did anything to cause these players the distress and damage this case may have caused them.
"Some of these folks listed are facing the same kind of distress and worry today."
The LAX players were innocent of a rape that never happened, and could in no way be faulted for personal inactions that allowd it to happen, sicne it never happened.
But the rape frame did happen, and the only way such evil could have succeeded was for many otherwise decent people who were not directly involved bu who knew something was wrong to have watched and done nothing.
Anyway, those accused are facing the possibility of losing money in a civil trial, not of going to prison for 30 years. And they're not facing a legal system gone plainly mad, where proof of innocence is no defense. All in all, what tehy're experriencinng sucks a lot less than what the lacrosse team experienced.
It just doesn't sound to me to be the kind of quote that 'speaks' for Steel and what he represents and what I believe he stands for.
What do you believe he represents and stands for, and what is the basis of that belief?
Personal experience?
Observation of him saying/doing the right thing on a subject you are expert in?
His reputation among people you know?
His PR and press persona?
The latter two can be misleading.
My thinking is that the reason so many people are named is to get someone to talk. Some of the defendants who may not have been complicit in the actual frameup have useful knoeledge of how it occured and who is responsible. Naming them is a lever to make them tell the truth, a commodity which appears to be in short supply in Durham.
I know, I know, spell check.
11:21. Are you saying that this is a gentle form of waterboarding?
Do you think that the LAX 3 felt terrorized?
What about their parents, and grandparents who had to mortgage their homes, who suffered illness and even death potentially brought on by seeing their sons go through this trial by fire?
IMO let the leverage begin. SOMEBODY needs to talk. And fast. You can put everybody including the newpaper carrier on there as far as I am concerned if it begins to crack this case.
SOMEBODY/ maybe several of the somebodies, WILL begin to tell the truth. Surely we can find at last ONE honest person in this whole list!
Redmountain:
"It just doesn't sound to me to be the kind of quote that 'speaks' for Steel and what he represents and what I believe he stands for."
In order for me to accept that statement I would need to assume that Steel was out of the loop on the activities of the radicals at Duke for the last 18 months.
I don't believe that's a reasonable assumption.
Ken
Dallas
To Red Mountain at 8:28 am: Quoting from your 6:59am "....quote attributed to Steel, the one about the players can sort it out on appeal...." Let the(some that I believe are not responsible for what happened to the Lacrosse team nor did anything to cause these players the distress and damage) Defendants prove their "innocence" at Trial, and if still not satisfied they can go the Steele route and "sort it out on appeal"
Danvers
Sorry for the late posting, but am in the wilds at the moment
tramadol info
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